from Tel Aviv the former British army

officer and now Trustee of the UK

Friends of the association for the

well-being of Israeli soldiers Colonel

Richard Kemp and from Ramala Palestinian

national initiative leader Mustafa Bargouti

thank you both for joining me let me

start with you if I may Mr barouti uh

we've just had this news in we've all

just heard it of the Deputy head of

hamaz being killed in Beirut obviously

this is the leader of the group that

killed Palestinians in the K in Gaza in

2006-7 and of course one of the

people who planned the October the 7th

Massacre what's your response to his

killing tonight

well if you allow me and I hope

you will accept that from me I think

your presentation is absolutely

one-sided totally biased to the Israeli

side you speak about the right of Israel

to defend itself but you don't mention

the right of the Palestinian people to

defend themselves you failed to mention

that Israel is the aggressor

which started this terrible occupation

since 56 years and Palestinians as

people under occupation according to

international law have the right to

defend themselves and to resist

occupation you you failed to mention

that no less than 29,000 civilian

Palestinians have been killed by Israeli

BB I mentioned that I mentioned that

including in no no you mentioned as if

they were killed on their own not by

Israeli bombardment what should be clear

here is that 29,000 Palestinians if we

include those under the rebel have been

killed by Israeli terrible air strikes

and artillery bombardment including no

less than 12,000 children I've said so

many times on so many programs I'm

against the killing of any civilian

whether Palestinian or Israel but if you

speak about the killing of 30 Israeli

children you should also speak about the

12,000 Palestinian children who were

killed well

Mr May uh I did mention the killing of

children I did say that that is

appalling damage in the war but let me

let me finish the question before you

try to answer a question I haven't yet

asked you said that the Palestinian

people allowed to uh resist as you call

it what what does that look like in your

view according to international law

people who are under occupation have the

right to resist in all forms including

military forms as long as they respect

international law and international

humanitarian law okay so what does it

look like does it Israel Israel wants

not only to look I've been struggling

with nonviolent resistance all my life I

was injured nine times by the Israeli

Army although I never used any weapon I

was shot I was shot twice but but you're

not telling but you're telling me sir

wait a minute you're not telling me what

legitimate resistance is while

legitimate resistance is all forms of

resistance that respect International

humanitarian law which means not

attacking civilians not attacking

children it's very clear that's what

international law says I not creating

that okay but even when I was in my

white coat wait a minute when I was in

my white coat in treating an injured

person an Israeli sniper shot me twice

the same same mentality of these snipers

killed Shireen Abu your colleague the

journalist and nobody no Israeli was

indicted 33 of my Pro my colleagues

doctors nurses health professionals have

been killed by Israeli air strikes in

Gaza 104 ambulances were destroyed all

our health centers were destroyed this

is not acceptable okay thank you mrti Mr

baruti we have another guest so I'd like

to go over to Tel Aviv to Colonel

Richard Kemp what do you make of what

you've just

heard well I think um Mr barouti talks

about uh legitimate resistance adhering

to the laws of War uh well first of all

resistance to war what the the Israelis

withdrew from Gaza in

2005 uh and set effectively set up a two

State solution let let the Palestinian

Authority which was then taken over by

Hamas run their own territory so what

are they actually resisting what's this

resistance about and when it comes to

the laws of war the people the Hamas

butchers that Mr barouti has been quoted

as referring to as our brave Fighters

they went into Israeli territory on the

7th of October they raped burnt alive

butchered cut off their heads kidnapped

abused civilians and soldiers civilians

though which is you know against

obviously it's against any law of War it

was against the laws of war to kill

anyone inside another country but in in

that way but but to do to to to butcher

civilians like that what where's the

laws of war there and secondly ever

since that day and of course many many

times before his Brave Hamas Fighters as

he calls them have been firing rockets

indiscriminately at civilian populations

inside Israel and they're still doing so

they won't be doing so much longer

because they're about to be throttled by

the IDF and not only that but they've

also been firing them from within the

civilian population that is against the

laws of armed conflict and preventing

civilians from leaving the combat areas

when the igf are trying to warn them

about attacks again against the laws of

arm conflict they've also fired many of

their Rockets into the Gaza civilian

population we just have to look at the

Al Ali Hospital attack that was

attributed to the IDF but turned out to

be an Islamic Jihad and other Brave

Islamic Jihad Fighters firing their own

Rockets into their own civilian

population let's not forget what Hamas

is all about here the the reason Hamas

launched this attack there are strategic

reasons of course but the the overriding

reason they launched this attack on the

7th of October and the reason they

launched all of their attacks is to

force Israel to defend itself from these

attacks which any country and every

country would do and has the right and

the obligation to do and in in carrying

out its reaction to these attacks Israel

unfortunately has no choice but to to

kill innocent civilians in the process

despite the efforts they take which are

enormous to avoid doing that but that's

what Hamas wants Hamas they don't they

don't just want civilians to protect

their terrorists they want Israel to

kill civilians so that Israel is then

condemned delegitimized vilified

isolated around the world and it happen

works every time in the United Nations

the

universities uh in in some governments

human rights groups always condemn

Israel that's what Hamas want and that

encourages Hamas to do it again and

again and again and by Mr barouti who

who claims to support peaceful

resistance by Mr barouti justifying what

they do he also has blood on his hands

from

encouraging get a moment Mr V you're

going to get a moment to respond to that

I I just want to ask you first let's

just clear that this up before you do

respond to Colonel Kemp did you call him

as our brave Fighters or

not I never said that no I don't know

where you got that from no it's not true

you are putting words in my mouth but

let me let me respond to what the

colonal said the colonialist said is

reflecting clearly a very clear white

supremacy approach it is okay Supremacy

why don't you say why don't you say why

don't you say clearly that you are

supporting the killing of Palestinian

children why don't you say clearly that

you are supporting the killing of

Palestinian civilians why don't you say

that you are supporting Israeli

occupation of Palestinian land and

supporting three terrible war crimes

even the American public is against that

three war crimes the war crime of

genocide which the international court

of justice is looking into now the war

crime of collective punishment and the

war crime of ethnic cleansing 90 wait a

minute 90% of the Palestinian people

were eved from their homes what would

you have said if Palestinians eved

Israelis from their homes that be

acceptable they have done why don't you

use the same standard I'm going to go

back I'm going to go back to colel k a

moment but why why is why is this white

supremacy where did that come from the

Israeli public are not all white because

I don't I think you don't see us white

enough and you are against anybody who's

not white and that's why you justify

terrible atrocities that Israel is

committing and you are justifying not

only the fact that Israel is occupying

us but the fact that Israel conducted

the worst kind of ethnic cleansing in

1948 forcing 70% of the Palestinian

people out I'm going to go back to col

facts I'll just go back to Colonel Kemp

quickly Colonel Kemp you you said that

he that Mr vgy said our brave Fighters

were hamz he says he didn't say that um

who's

right well I certainly read him quote he

may not have said it but I read him

being quoted as saying I think it was

Middle East eye or something like that

but he can certainly if he'd like to

Google it to see what he actually said

he can find that on the internet and

what do you make of this claim and what

do you make of this claim Colonel Kemp

that everyone who justifies always in

any way on the side of his during this

war is a is a white supremacist because

Israel doesn't look like a very allwhite

country to me but I don't

know no I mean you know there's there

are all blends of um races in Israel and

one thing we should remember as well is

that there is a significant Muslim Arab

population in Israel and one thing that

I've observed in recent weeks ised a

skyring a skyrocketing of support for

Israel among the Israeli Arab Muslim

population the the poll polls number of

polls have shown that a huge grow growth

of support for Israel a greater

association with the state of Israel

since the 7th of October and that is

partly due to the fact that Hamas his

his Brave fighters from Hamas that that

he clearly supports came in and um and

butchered not just uh Israelis but

Israeli Jews but they also came and and

killed a number of Arabs and and and

people from many different ethnicities

so what he's talking I think it's a

great throwaway line white supremacy it

obviously gets you know it's one of

these intersectional terms you know me

too and all this sort of stuff it's it's

he obviously thinks that's going to

Garner support for him for people who uh

you know do object rightly object to the

idea of white supremacy but I don't

think that comes into this argument one

little bit Mr margi finally we've

already got a few seconds but you said

we need to go back to 1947 and 1948

what do you say to the people who say

you can go back thousands of years and

you never never have an end to this

argument well look Palestinians were

displaced from their country including

cities like jafa where my father lived

and haa and AKA 75 years ago if Israel

is after 3,000 years have the right to

go back and demand to be in Palestine

then why not Palestinians who have been

evicted 75 years ago why should we

forget about our own country and let's

go back to the United Nations resolution

that established the state of Israel it

said that there should be two states

Israel and Palestine Israel was created

and Palestine was occupied that is the

reality as we all know Mr Mari there's

one thing we can be sure about about

that that's highly disputed history as

it all is there wasn't a Palestinian

State then there could have been it's

the United Nation resolution it's a it's

a very sad thing there wasn't a

Palestinian State created then and that

the Palestinians it will be it will be I

assure you a lot of people hope it will

be but uh if there certainly won't be if

people are praising Hamas and uh the

longer they're around the less likely it

is there will ever be a Palestinian

State as far as I can see but thank you

very much Colonel Richard Kemp in Tel

Aviv and thank you uh to masafa bouti

our intersectionalist tonight in

rala