last time I interviewed you 4 days after

the appalling Terror attacks of October

the 7th when emotions were very raw uh

and I asked you directly then uh about

what you felt would be a proportionate

response by Israel to what Hamas did on

that terrible day and this is what you

said frankly I don't believe in

proportionate response to terrorism I

believe that the way that you stop

terrorism is with wildly

disproportionate response that doesn't

mean in terms of targeting civilians

means in terms of killing as many

terrorists as humanly possible so my

question is today what is the going rate

today for human lives I mean 2014 was a

great year for Ben Shapiro 88 Israelis

were died and there was

2329 Palestinians killed on the other

side that is one Israeli for 27 uh

Palestinian that is a very good exchange

rate what I'm saying is what is the

exchange rate for today so you guys will

be happy so that was basam us response

to you saying effectively when you deal

with terrorism there should be no sense

of proportion um first of all your

response to what he said

there listen bosam is a very smart guy

and I don't think that sarcasm or bad

analogies or moral equivalents are

really substitutes for realism or moral

clarity about situations like fighting

terrorism no one wants civilians to die

except for Hamas Hamas actually does

want civilians to die but nobody

rejoices when civilian side no one is

looking for an exchange rate of death

for death the point that I was making is

that when you are talking about for

example legal proportionality in terms

of just War what you're talking is about

proportionality to achieve your target

there is no actual math that goes into a

war where you say if a certain number of

people die on this side versus a certain

number of people die on that side

therefore the war is unjust that's not

exactly how War Works war is geared

toward achieving a certain goal

achieving that goal if it is a moral

goal is moral and then the question is

what is the minimum amount of force that

you need to use in order to achieve that

goal that's what we were talking about

when we talk about proportionality when

you're fighting a war like Israel is

currently fighting in the Gaza Strip in

which Hamas has embedded itself in

virtually every area of life in civilian

neighborhoods in schools in hospitals in

in SE beneath cemeteries when when you

see Hamas do this sort of stuff the

question is what level of force must

Israel use in order to extrap that

terrorist presence and that terrorist

threat and frankly Israel would love to

do that with the minimum of both

Palestinian death and Israeli death

considering that more than 200 Israeli

soldiers have been killed in the Gaza

Strip I mean I'm I'm one degree removed

from three of the soldiers who've been

killed in the Gaza Strip there for

Israel that's that's a heavy burden

beyond that Israel has no interest in

Mass killing of Palestinians they were

perfectly happy to leave the Gaza Strip

completely alone despite heavy rocket

fire for fullon 20 years from 2005 all

the way up till 2023 it's 18 years and

Israel did not participate in for

example the kind of action that you are

seeing which is a direct result of

October 7th the goal for Israel is to

extrap Hamas all of this could be over

literally tomorrow and and by the way

every day since October 7th if the

leaders of Hamas walked out held their

hands up took deportation not we're not

even talking about an Israeli jail

there's probably a deal deal on the

table right now for Hamas leaders to

actually be sent just to some third

party country if they were to surrender

the hostages surrender power and leave

this war would be over like immediately

let me will not do that they've been

firing Rockets into Tel Aviv literally

this week right let me take you up on

that because I don't think it would end

that way because I think the trouble

with what's been going on since we spoke

in terms of proportion is I saw a BBC

report yesterday uh that the UN were

reporting that 19,000 children in Gaza

have now been orphaned another 10,000

children are reported by the Hamas run

uh Palestinian health authority have

been killed 50 to 60% of gazen buildings

have been severely damaged or completely

destroyed and I don't see any any

nearness to the end of this because by

Israel's own numbers they've only killed

if you believe their numbers and I'm not

quite sure how they know this under

10,000 Hamas terrorists that means that

you know two-thirds of the Hamas

terrorists are still to be taken out so

this could go on for many months maybe a

year and those numbers of civilians

being killed will exponentially rise and

the devastation in Gaza will reach a

point where there is no real Gaza left

and I don't understand here Ben what the

end game is for Israel I'm not even sure

they've worked it out themselves other

than to just obliterate everything in

what many see as an overreaction to what

happened by a superpower that hasn't

thought through the consequences of

taking out the whole of

Gaza it's certainly hard to deem an

overreaction to the murder of 12200 of

your citizens and more than a 100

hostages still being kept by a terror

group in destroying buildings for

example right now what Israel is

attempting to do and what the long-term

plan is going to be and I said this in

the interview as you recall days after

October 7th is that there would in fact

be a long-term military occupation of

Gaza the question is going to be when

Israel shifts its strategy from a high

intensity campaign to a lower intensity

occupation which is predictably going to

be the result of all of this because

again the governing power in Gaza is

still Hamas when Hamas is no longer the

governing power the question is going to

be what replaces it unfortunately

there's been no power other than Israel

that has been willing to actually take

up that question simply because the

Palestinian Authority is incapable of

even running the West Bank Authority is

deeply unpopular even in the West Bank

the Palestinian Authority is itself r

with corruption and Jew hatred there's

literally law on the books and the

Palestinian Authority pay for slay that

actually pays people for the killing of

Jews so that is not a power that can be

in charge of the Gaza script that will

leave Israel with any sort of sense of

security the UAE has no interest in

running the Gaza Strip Egypt has no

interest in running the Gaza Strip

Jordan has no interest in running the

Gaza Strip Saudi has no interest in

running the Gaza Strip the United States

obviously has no interest in running the

Gaza Strip so the question becomes who

runs the Gaza Strip and if you are

Israel that question is not a question

for for a distant day that is a question

for every day and right now the military

is effectively in control of the Gaza

Strip and that is likely to remain until

there is some form of regime in the Gaza

Strip that can be put in place that will

end with the extrap of terrorism that

cannot involve the unrwa which is a

terror Haven that cannot involve the UN

because the un unfortunately has been

cover for Hamas for literally 20 years

and so the question here is a tough one

and it's not an answerable one in kind

of right now and that's sort of the

problem just because there is no good

answer to the question doesn't mean that

the question isn't urgent or that there

is an alternative option available to

what Israel is doing what what I've been

missing in all this is what exactly is

the alternative option that has been

presented by anyone other than Israel

continuing on its quest to extrap Hamas

so long as Hamas is holding its citizens

firing Rockets into the center of Israel

and threatening Israeli life okay my

response to that would be that I think

it's morally incumbent on Israel who

I've already said many times and believe

to this day have not just a moral uh

right to defend themselves but a duty to

their citizens to do so so let's just

park that to one side my position on

that has not changed it's just how

they've gone about it and you know only

yesterday we saw Israel forces dressing

up um both as you know in in Hamas style

clothes and Palestinian clothes to go

into a hospital on the West Bank and

take out three Hamas terrorists um and

there were many people uh you know

impartial observers you say that what

they did there contravenes international

law that they effectively committing war

crimes because it's a violation of

international law to feain protected spe

status in this case by dressing up as a

doctor or patient in order to invite the

confidence of the adversary and then

proceed to kill or injure them and is

also against international law for

combatants who've been incapacitated by

wounds or sickness and are protected

from Attack as persons order to combat

so if they're paralyzed or incapacitated

and attack on that individual is

prohibited by international law so I

look at that it seems to be a a primery

case of Israel breaking the law uh do

you defend

that yes I defend that because if Hamas

or in this case Islamic Jihad is using a

hospital as a terror base which they

have historically done then the

violation of international laws on them

I mean by all international law using a

hospital as a terror base which we have

seen in the Gaza Strip we're currently

seeing in the West Bank as well that's

the war crime I always find it very

bizarre that international law is

invoked when it comes to a response to a

war crime but not to the original War

crime if you use a hospital as a terror

base then the hospital is no longer only

a hospital it also becomes a site from

which terror is emanating and so when

Israel engages in a targeted military

operation by the way not killing any

civilians in this particular operation

killing people who are clearly

terrorists that is the war crime as

opposed to terrorists using the hospital

as an organizing base that seems to me

peculiar well it is by the letter of the

law of international law yeah it is what

they did was a war crime you you can't

dress up effectively as uh doctors and

patients uh and take out people who are

being treated which is what appears to

have

happened well it's unclear whether

they're being treated or whether they're

simply using the hospital as cover

that's Israel's contention anyway the

look I I think that the problem is when

you talk about this you talk with great

uh Clarity and you have a certainty

about how you think this all plays out I

think what you may underestimate and

corre me if you disagree with this but I

don't understand how the kind of

Devastation we're seeing now in Gaza the

kind of huge death toll on children and

women in particular who have nothing to

do with this obviously how that is going

to not just lead to a whole new

radicalization of Palestinians that will

replace Hamas so yeah Hamas May well get

permanently dismantled uh they're

clearly being killed in large numbers

and clearly the underground tunnel oper

operations are being dismantled and and

netanyahu's made it clear he'll keep

going until the end so assume that Hamas

are removed effectively um why do you

think Ben that doing this in the way

that Israel is doing it is not just

going to lead to a whole new breeding

ground of radicalized Palestinians

who've lost family members kids wives

and so on and who will want to exact

Revenge how does it make Israel safer

it makes Israel safer by not

allowing the governing party in that

region to actually be fting the violence

providing Weaponry providing education

to small children that reinforces all of

the Jew hatred and anti-Semitism that

has been reinforced in these areas

that's sort of like asking in the

aftermath of World War II there have

been so much unbelievable Devastation in

Germany in Italy throughout Continental

Europe how is it the Western Powers

could expect that there wouldn't be an

entire generation of people who would

rise up in Revenge for all of that and

the answer is that a rebuilding process

is going to have to take place this is

currently why from my understand

understanding Israel is negotiating with

the United States trying to bring in the

UAE trying to bring Saudi Arabia to

essentially put in place some sort of

Marshal plan for the rebuilding of the

Gaza Strip that's going to take outside

money that's going to take a long-term

effort this is not something that can

happen overnight I think one of the big

problems in foreign policy is very often

that people are looking for the

immediate solution at the expense of the

realistic solution and the realistic

solution in an area of the world where

conflicts go thousands of years deep is

not something that's going to happen

next week it's going to have to actually

require heavy rebuilding heavy monetary

investment but monetary investment not

via group groups that are linked to

Terror and sponsor Terror and F Terror

but linked to groups that actually are

going to promote quiessence that are

actually going to promote moderation

that are actually going to promote a

future in this region of the world where

both parties can coexist